How to Be a Student of Stoicism

Dalton Jensen

You know, and it's not this sombering thing too. It's like memento mori, right? Like enjoy it, celebrate it. Right. But just know that those things don't last forever.

Like that it's okay when you're not happy anymore. Like when the joy is over, like you don't need to joy and happiness shouldn't be a drug that we chase. Like sometimes it's not going to be okay. Some things aren't okay, dude.

All right. We're rolling Tyler. Thanks for joining me, brother. Yeah. Thanks for having me on.

I'm excited. Yeah. Now you host a podcast. You're also the, what is it? The COO or did I get that right?

Tyler Leber

Of Coconut VA? Yeah. Co-founder. I've actually delegated COO role. So we've delegated CEO and COO.

So we were just owners, founders, whatever. Dude. Good for you guys.

Dalton Jensen

You guys are killing it. Thanks. So this is a, of course, man. Yeah. This is a unique podcast because it's a podcast. It's a podcast.

We actually got on the call because, and on this podcast, because you've wanted to dive into stoicism, dude, and your post blew up. What made you want to dive into stoicism or what piqued your interest with it?

Tyler Leber

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Stoicism in general is fascinating to me. I feel like it's kind of like a new area for me in terms of just my knowledge of the world and different ways that people live really.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was definitely, I grew up in organized religion, right? And so I feel like stoics have kind of more of like, it's a way that they live, but it's not based necessarily in religion.

It's more of like philosophy. And I've heard a lot of people mention stoicism recently. And then it really, yeah, triggered me when I was on an airplane and the guy next to me was reading The Essentials of Marcus Aurelius and a bunch of notes on stoicism.

And so I was like, wow, that is fascinating. Like this guy that's like, you know, kind of reading the Bible, but like the Bible of stoicism, which I don't know if it's actually the Bible of stoicism, but it was fascinating to see, you know, out in the wild.

Yeah. There are some staple works of stoicism.

Dalton Jensen

So you have the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, which is the staple, probably the staple. Then you have Seneca, some discourses by Epictetus. And so you have quite a bit of that. And what I think is cool before we get to the end of the show, I want to talk a little bit about the before we kind of dive in and like reverse the roles.

I always love to say that I started getting into, I got into stoicism before it was cool. Like before, like I, so I grew up in organized religion too. So I'm LDS and I'm still pretty active. And I only felt like it complimented my, what I, what I already viewed.

Cause when, and I guess we can get into this, but like, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of just crazy, but you know, there's some main tenants of it. And I think it's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of, people live by and like Ryan holidays and a great job of like shedding some, some light on like what it is.

But, you know, it's kind of been around, you know, an old kind of Hellenistic Greek philosophy. And, and by the way, too, I was like two or three classes away from getting a philosophy degree before I changed my major at the end because I didn't realize the power of social media. So I was like, dude, I'm not going to make any money with philosophy.

If I graduate with a philosophy degree, I'm not going to make any money with philosophy. I'm going to be broke for the rest of my life. Uh, anyway, I don't know if I, if that was the right thing, but anyway, but it was cool.

Cause I learned quite a bit and, and, uh, but then like grew up with some of those principles. So let's dive in though, because I've, I mean, I'm not like a, I'm not like a, I want to be careful. I'm not like an expert, but I do have, it has formed a lot of opinions and I have been able, I've done enough research where there's some things that kind of get conflicting.

If you start reading. At a high level. And I've gotten past a lot of those like conflicting ones. Um, but yeah, man.

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Dude, reverse it. Let's, let's dive into stoicism, man. This is great. Yeah. And that's, and that's why I wanted to interview you.

Cause I, I know you had talked about stoicism before I started hearing about it and like getting popular. So yeah, I think you're the perfect guy to ask. Um, and that is fascinating to me.

Tyler Leber

And that was one of my first questions is, is it a religion? Is it a philosophy? Does it replace religion? Cause that's kind of what I, that's the vibe I initially had.

I initially got is like, okay, a lot of people seem to be like leaving organized religion. So is this kind of something to like fill that void almost like, okay, now you're not believing in God, but you do have this separate kind of way of life that you're living, but it does sound like it can coexist. Yeah, I think so.

Dalton Jensen

So, you know, there's a, I don't know who said it, but you know, philosophy is a way of living. So in my mind, religion would give you the tenants or like the kind of the overview and philosophy would tell you like, all right, how does this practically work in real life? You know what I'm saying?

Like, because it's easy to be like, love your neighbor. Right. That's an easy thing to write down in a book. Yeah. What does that look like when everything goes to shit in a relationship? You know what I mean?

And so like stoicism would, would answer that question. And it would say, you can only control what you can control. Right. And the only story that matters in, in the case of two, you know, two people, two people, two people, two people, two people, two people, two people, two people, two parties is the one that actually happened.

Right. Because we, there's a, you know, stoicism kind of, you know, there's a lot of these philosophies that kind of start to mix when you talk about like interpersonal relationships and Buddhism has a good one, you know, and stoicism kind of like mix when you talk about like those relationships. And that is like, there's two stories that you tell yourself, right.

And suffering is the story that you, the story that you tell yourself and pain is the story of what actually happened. So pain, pain hurts, but, but suffering is the story that we continue to tell ourselves. And so for me, like if you leave religion, I think finding a philosophy, because like Buddhism's not even really a religion, it's more of a philosophy.

Right. Right. And so there's nothing wrong. Like you can, you know, me being LDS, like you can incorporate a lot of Buddhist, you know, tenant, a lot of stoic tenants and, and, and it would only compliment that. Right. And so interesting.

Um, there's a lot that kind of goes into that, but yeah. I mean, it's only ever enhanced what I, I believe. And when you look at like, I don't know, I don't know what religion you are. Yeah. I'm LDS as well.

Yeah. LDS. Okay, cool. So, so, but when you listen to things like in the LDS culture specifically, um, a lot of it, you know, could be tied back to stoicism. I remember a general conference, like back in like 2012, where I was, I put on Twitter, I was like, I was like, uh, you know, thought, right.

And so I thought it was, I thought it was pretty cool that way. But anyway. Yeah. Um, yeah, hopefully that kind of answers your question.

Tyler Leber

Well, yeah. And I, I guess that ties in, uh, to another question is like, what is kind of the, maybe not necessarily like the end goal of stoicism, but what is kind of like the peak version, right. Of stoicism. Like, what does that actually look like?

How does that affect you?

Dalton Jensen

Yeah, I think there's, so there's four tenants that four virtues that a stoic would tell you about. Right. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so people always look for virtues to kind of guide their lives. Like you, you know, if you take any business class, you're going to take a leadership class and they're going to tell you to leave with values.

And then they're going to tell you to go take all of this crap tests and figure out what your values are. I think stoicism in particular does a really good at like telling people like, Hey, these are the four main virtues and values that we should live by. Um, and then the overarching one though, I think there's two main ones, the ones that I really enjoy.

Um, I guess there's three ones that I really enjoy living by. So the first one is a more fatty. I think I told everybody that on your post, I got that tattooed on my arm. I love that one.

Yeah. That's awesome. I'll go over all three of them and then I'll just tell you, I'll break them down. So more fat is the first one. Memento Mori is the second one.

And some of them Bonham is the third one. There's a lot of these, but, but, uh, um, those are the three that I really enjoy and kind of lean into. So I'm more fatty is the love of fate. So whatever happens is supposed to happen, right?

Like in the analogy, in the analogy of life, like stoicism would, would give us an analogy and say, life is like, uh, a, a dog being tied to the cart, right? You can either run or get dragged. Memento Mori is remember that you will die.

Yeah. And it's not morbid. It's to create urgency. Like, okay. I think a fascinating question is if you knew Tyler, if you knew that this would be the last podcast interview that you ever did in your life, would that change a couple of things you would say on this?

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Maybe if you knew that, like, you know, and it's so cliche, but like, you know, the Nickelback song, like if today was your last day or whatever, but like it really, but. What, but I mean, like, seriously, you know, when you ask people that question, they might say, well, I'd totally quit my job and I'd go be with my family.

Well then what, what's, you know what I mean? Then what do you need to do in your life to align that?

Tyler Leber

Yeah. With, yeah. And I like how you said it, like you can easily see that as morbid. And like, that's kind of what I've heard from some people is like, it seems like cynical in a way, you know, the, like the stoicism kind of philosophy is almost cynical, but like, I like how you're putting it.

It's not. Morbid. It's, it's more just creating a sense of urgency or action.

Dalton Jensen

Yeah. Cause like we do all have an expiration date and the only, the only caveat to that is no one knows when it is. Yeah. And so it's kind of like this idea that you, you know what, dude, if I was going to die on the way home today, I wouldn't be taking this shit from my boss. You know what I mean?

So like, why wouldn't I, why, why don't I have a conversation with him? And maybe you do it nicer than, than the way I said it. But maybe you're like, Hey dude, I, you know, I've been thinking about a boss man and, and X, Y, Z, and maybe you have a really good conversation, you know what I mean?

Or, or, or in your personal, like sometimes I do this with my wife. Like if this was the last conversation, my wife and I had what I want to spend it for lack of a better word, bitching about this, you know, minutia. No, dude, I'm probably going to let a couple of things go because it's not that important.

You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Um, so I think that's the way you look at it is, is like, what I really, is this something I really should care about? And so let's tie this back in, by the way, like Christianity in just in general, right? We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins.

Is that the, and I use this phrase literally, and I really enjoy it, but like, is that the hill that he died on? All of these, you know what I mean? Like, well, whatever you think about anything, right?

Right. I think the love of God really shows forth in this memento mori thing, like drinking coffee, for example, I don't really care what you think about drinking coffee, but to me, is that the first question I'm going to get asked if there is an interview with God? Right. I don't know.

You know what I mean? And maybe you don't, I'm not telling anybody to go do something they don't think they should do, but I'm just saying like, if you, but if you, if you have that in your head and somebody is drinking coffee, like why, why should I judge this person?

If I, Right. If that's not the hill he died on, maybe I should just let it go and just be like, I don't want to do it, but you can do it. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I love that. I think it just brings in a lot of love, you know, when you just realize this all temporary. Right. Like what matters, what doesn't matter.

Tyler Leber

And like, again, kind of doing it back to Christianity or LDS, like what I, what I hear a lot is like eternal perspective, right? It's, it's kind of shows you what to prioritize and what to not care about when you think about the, how, you know, how long, our spiritual lives actually are compared to just this short time here, you know, on this planet.

Dalton Jensen

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, and there's a lot of, and then the other thing I really love about Stoicism is it's counterintuitive approach to life. So like I, some, so you have summum bonum, which is the highest good. So the highest good is just to do things because it's the right thing, not because, you know, you get some reward for it.

Like people aren't a means to an end. So like, again, it, if you believe in God and this can go for Christianity or not, you know, Abrahamic religions, non-Abrahamic religions, um, when, when people start to become a means to an end or, or commandments or rules start to become a means to an end.

Yeah. That's when things get real dicey. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, why are you like, why are you doing what you're doing? Like, is it because you think you're, there's this blessing that you're going to get or, or is it eventually you got to make the right decision just because you're not going to get it?

You know, it's the right thing to do. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, and, and so that kind of throws into this counterintuitive approach of like not having expectations, like, and we love this and we love to say that.

And I get pushed back on this all the time. Why I have certain expectations of my wife. Otherwise there wouldn't be, otherwise we wouldn't be married. Right. Or I have friends or whatever.

And I'm not saying keep people in your life that don't bring value into it. Like my wife obviously brings a ton of value, but here, here's a very counterintuitive approach to my life that helps drive my purpose. And that is like, my family is not my why. The reason is because if I lost all my money today, my family would still be there.

Yeah. My kids actually tell me that I work too much. They actually would love it if I stayed home all day and played with them. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not why I work. I don't work because of my family.

I work because I find purpose and that helps me find meaning in my life and I can help people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very, again, like, not, not something that you would hear, especially if you scroll through LinkedIn for two seconds, everybody posts pictures of their kids and they're like my why.

And I, and listen, don't get me wrong. Like I love my children. I love my wife. Yeah. But these, these, but like, it kind of just makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, obviously I'm, I'm not working to, obviously I want to work to like provide my kids for a better life, but he, but here's another thing, right? So I grew up very poor in a really rough part of the country.

One of the poorest counties in Iowa, in a really rough part of the country. Yeah. And that changed my whole life and it grew, it put, which it brings up another great point about stoicism, by the way, which is, um, you're a more fatty, your story, but, but why would I want it if I know that that is how I grew and that's, and like all that pain and suffering was something that made me who I am today.

Why would I shield my kids from that? Yeah. Right. It doesn't make any sense. Like we all, we've all seen the opposite of that story and it's not totally. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Tyler Leber

Yeah. The spoiled kids and yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure. And well, this is super random, super tangential, but like kind of bringing it to like pop culture. Do you feel like, uh, the Mandalorian, is he a stoic?

Oh, dude, I don't, I haven't even watched that, bro. I don't know. Okay.

Dalton Jensen

That's my, my hypothesis, but there's a lot of things, right? And that's why, stoicism really isn't like, you can find it in a lot of places. And that's why I really enjoy stoicism is because it's just, it's like practical. It's like very common sense.

Dalton Jensen

It's like, you can literally only control what you can control. Right. Right. You don't have a, and it's the paradox of control, which is you, the, the less you realize you have, the more that you gain, because when you start to focus on the things you actually can control, you can start to make real progress.

Interesting. Like we don't like, we don't get, okay. So like, I'm going to, I'm going to throw one at you. That's that's super, uh, the one that I get flack on all the time when I go to church or something like that. And that is, there's two things that you think you can control, but you really can't.

Like the first one is your body. Like if I told you that Tyler, like you're not allowed to get sick for the next two days. Well, that's not something you can control. Right. So you really can't control your body.

So like, you know, um, getting sick or something like that, that's really not up to you for a whole lot of time. Right. So you can't Yeah. Totally. Cause we've seen both sides. Right. I've seen smokers live a hundred years.

Yeah. Right. So, and so, and the second thing is, is, um, so you have the, you know, what you can't control. So, and then, and then you got like your thoughts and your emotions, actually the better phrase for that would be management, right? Cause we've all had thoughts come into our head that, Oh, how the hell did that get there?

Yeah. Right. So it's not, it's not how they get there. It's not how they get there. It's how they get there. It's what you do with them when they get there.

Right. Which I think is a very wise approach just in life. Yeah. Cause telling somebody to, you know, cause like, and this is also counter counter LDS culture because telling some young kid to like control his thoughts, right? Like it's impossible.

It literally is scientifically not at, you can't. Right. So, right. So again, this is why I'm so big on empathy because if you understand that, like you have so much more empathy for people, you realize like, dude, I know you can't control it, man.

Yeah. I totally get it. And it's not about what comes into your head. It's about what we do with it. Right. Because, yeah, because Sam Harris would say that, um, you know, we don't control anything that are, that our actions are predetermined.

And if you go, if you go on the Sam Harris train, you're like, okay, yeah. Neuroscience is all proven. I think that's great. But what, what next dude?

Because you can't go to an inner city or to my hometown and tell all the kids who are poor, and have no future that, that there's nothing they can do to get out of that situation because it's already been predetermined. Right. Right. So it's a hard argument to make. Stoicism would answer the second part of that, which is, all right, well, if you can't do that, then do what you can and you'll get pretty far in life.

Tyler Leber

Right. Well, I mean, and that kind of, maybe the question about kind of like controlling your, your body, like you can't, I can't make my body not ever be sick. Um, I can't control my body. I can't control my body.

I can't control my life. I can't control my body. Uh, which actually funny enough, I did talk to a, I think he was a Navy. He was a former Navy seal.

Um, and I, he believed that he, he had control over that based on how he lived his life and like what he put into his body and everything like he could control it. And he hadn't gotten sick for six years or something, but I, I do have that question, like kind of, um, for, for that, that part of stoicism where it's like, you know, you kind of take whatever comes at you.

Right. And you kind of relinquish control of what, you know, you can't control. How, how do you kind of balance that? Because there is a point where you do have responsibility, right? Like if I, if I put good things into my body and I exercise, then I'm less likely like statistically, right. To get sick or to have issues and things like that.

Dalton Jensen

Right. Right. And look, I'm in, I'm a sales guy. I literally get paid on results. I, and, and, and what's funny about sales is like you, well, you and I know this, we get paid on results that we can't control.

You don't control whether somebody buys or not. Right. So what does that mean then as a salesperson who believes in this philosophy, what, how am I supposed to act? Well, I, I can't control if this guy buys Tyler, but I can control if I make a hundred phone calls a day, if I follow up with him, if I'm empathetic, if I train myself, if I keep my short sharp sword sharpened, then I got a pretty damn good chance.

Yeah. But listen, but you've been there. We've done, you can do everything right. And still lose a deal. Yeah. Right. So the question isn't, well, so to answer your question a little more directly, the, the question shouldn't be, you know, well, if I eat good, then I'll have good body.

Like I have a good body. That's not what the philosophy is supposed to do. The philosophy is supposed to answer the question of when shit hits the fan, even though you did everything right. What, like, how do I deal with that mentally?

Because yeah, the Navy seal. Right. But here's the thing, dude. Like, like I've, we've all seen it too. I know, I know I have a homie I'm training for a boxing match right now.

I have a homie who eats McDonald's every day and he can, and he outruns me and out and beats me up. Yeah. Yeah. And he takes care of it. He doesn't take care of his body at all. Right. And then like, so some people you, so you have to realize like, you have to be able to control what you can control. Right. So like, I'm not the Navy seal guy.

I'm probably going to get sick in a year or whatever. Right. But so I think it does two things. You know, for these guys, you know, it makes you more empathetic. You're like, dude, that works for me, but it might not work for you.

Let's figure this out. And then on my end, it's like, I have to figure out what works for me because that's all I can control. So that's what, that's how, but yes, we do. It doesn't eliminate personal responsibility.

In fact, it enhances personal responsibility because if you know, if I know that I can't control the outcome of this sale, then I have to work that much harder to make sure that I can put food on the table.

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Interesting. Well, and I, I mean, I, I heard there is kind of a popular analogy and it's similar to what we've already talked about, but it's like a good archer. Like, you know, once they, they, they can prep everything in their shot.

Right. And then once they release that arrow, like if then a gust of wind comes in and takes the arrow away, like, well, it's not because that archer was bad. It's because a random gust of wind came and took the arrow away. Right. So I like that analogy where, you know, you put everything in, your power up, right. To, to this test, to this arch test, whatever it is.

Um, and then after that, you, you kind of accept what happens with it.

Dalton Jensen

Well, yeah, I, I have a really good, uh, thing. I, you know, screensavers, it's just as expected. And this is like premeditatio malorum, which is the premeditation of evils. Like I, so I love to think about everything that can go wrong, which is totally the opposite of this, you know, this, uh, hustle culture, right.

Manifesting babes or whatever. But like, look, I do plan on everything that goes wrong because the question switches. Like if, like if I go Tyler, like me, me and Tyler are going to start a business. The first thing I'm going to ask is, all right, what if this goes terrible?

So actually how I make all of my business decisions, like if I'm going to invest money or invest time, though, this is the question that I asked myself, like, let's say I'm going to invest 10 grand into a business. I go, Tyler, I'll give you the 10 grand in my head. It's like, if I never see that $10,000 again, am I okay?

Tyler Leber

If the answer is yes, then let's go baby.

Dalton Jensen

Because the question then isn't what if it doesn't work? The question is what if it does work? Yeah. Interesting. You know what I mean? Like that's how I make, like, I'm going to spend an hour here.

If this is an hour and obviously I'll never get that time back. But if, but if I spend this hour and I absolutely hate it, would I still be okay? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that sounds weird, but you're like, but yeah, I guess it wouldn't be the worst thing. All right. Well then let's go, dude.

I guess, I guess so. What if I meet somebody? Well, you know what I mean? Like that's how I gauge it because it's this counterintuitive approach that stoicism brings that changes the question from what if this doesn't work to what if it does work, which I think is a powerful mindset shift.

Yeah. Oh, totally.

Tyler Leber

Well, and like, how much of it do you feel like has helped you be, um, maybe more, I think you may have mentioned the term, but like kind of having premeditation or, uh, conscious about conscious about upcoming decisions or upcoming events. I feel like you're, it kind of shifts your mind to, to thinking about that ahead of time to kind of plan how you're going to react if that, you know, worst case scenario does happen.

Yeah. Well, there's, you got to balance it because you know, you do the, the Sadhguru would call it,

Dalton Jensen

you know, spiritual schizophrenia to believe that you can be anywhere but the present. Right. Like being present is you only have the present. Yeah. You know, you can't live in the past. Like it's impossible for you to live in the past or the future.

So pre premeditate on malorum or like, or like anticipation. Um, I, I, I don't spend a lot of time doing that. I, I kind of, I kind of just, it's kind of like what I said at the beginning, which is whatever's going to happen is just going to happen.

Like if you, like in your, in your archer analogy, like that gust of wind is coming, whether you want it to or not. Right. Right. Like, you know what I mean?

Like it's like, and so my prayers changed by the way. Um, and this is, this is really like special to me and I don't think I've ever shared this, but my, so, and it's just you and me, whoever listens to this may not get it, but there's a, there's a scripture in the book of Mormon.

Um, that talks about, Oh dude. And of course I would, I would blink right now. Oh, um, not in the book of Mormon. Sorry. The doctrine and covenants that says, um, and they will consecrate.

Well, and it's in the book of Mormon too, by the way, sorry, but they will consecrate all thine afflictions for your gain. Yeah. Yep. So I don't, I don't pray. And by the way, prayer isn't to change the will of God, right. It's to align our will with his.

Totally. All right. So my prayers are, you know, heavenly father, whatever, is supposed to happen, let it happen. But if it happens, let it help me, like help me see the good in it. Help me, help me to get through it because there's nothing to change it.

You know what I mean? Right. Right. It's coming. And I don't believe that. I don't believe that, that we, that we, uh, and this is gets dicey, but I don't believe in a God that can, that can change all of that.

Like if it was supposed to happen, it's going to happen. You know what I mean? I don't think like, because then the question is, why did he do that for Tyler and not for me? Like who is more righteous?

And the question's not, that's not the question.

Tyler Leber

Right. Exactly. No, that's fascinating. And I appreciate you sharing that. Cause I I've had thoughts about that even in the past few months of like, like you say, you know, if, if this miracle happens to somebody, but not the other person, it's like, okay, well, you know, that person had more faith or they were more worthy for it.

Like, I don't know. It just brings in a lot of like, I feel like negative questions. Right. And like, so I like the, the different spin that you're putting on it is like, yeah, we'll just, yeah.

What's happened is going to happen. Help me react and live my life as, as much as it'll, you know, help me and help me progress and improve.

Dalton Jensen

And I think we should look for learning opportunities and everything. You know, one of my favorite books is by Kate Bowler. It's called everything happens for a reason and other lies I've loved. You know what I'm saying?

Like what's the re you know what I mean? So, so because we start to justify, we start to be like, Oh, it must've happened because of this. It must've happened. We start, we start acting like life and God is a gumball machine that if I give you a quarter, it's going to give me, you know what I mean?

And then maybe I get the color of the day and I get to take home a free movie or something like that. And that's not the game. That's not how I'm saying. Yeah. Yep. So I, you know, why did this person get cancer?

It just got cancer. Why, why, why did this happen to me? Well, why didn't it, you know, you know, I, I think like, it just helps us become more empathetic because sometimes in our church and our religion specifically, we can get caught up in what's called the prosperity gospel.

And we've all heard the, we've all, we all know the scripture, right? And for, for every commandment, there's a blessing associated with it. And the only way you get the blessing is by the commandment that's predicated upon or whatever. And I'm butchering that, but you get what I'm saying.

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Okay. Scripture wasn't meant for everyday stuff. In fact, that scripture specifically when Joseph was writing it and having it revealed was to a people who, who were just going buck wild, man.

Right. Who needed that to hear that. Yeah. For the most part, you know, God, isn't a gumball machine. And eventually, you know, you, you, you, we have to graduate. You know, we get to the, you know, I love the, I love the story in the, okay, don't, don't take this the wrong way because I use this word very intentionally in the, in the original way it was supposed to be used, but like the myth of Adam and Eve and how that's all us.

Like eventually we all get to the, eventually we all get kicked out. We all get kicked out of the garden. You know, we have those moments that are high school, right? You're a senior, you're living large, man, you're on top of the world and you're a freshman in college.

You got kicked out of the garden of Eden. You know what I mean?

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Yeah. Cause you have to, you have to get kicked out.

Dalton Jensen

Like everybody's like, well, why would God tell them these contradicting things? Because they had to leave. Yeah. They didn't want to leave. Yeah. Come on.

I like that. That's us, dude. And it has to be like that. It has to be, there is no other way.

You know what I mean? There's no other way. Yeah. And so, um, that's a big stoic. You know, lesson two is like, yeah, man, Winston Churchill was like, I think he said this.

I don't know if he did it. It's been disputed, but I liked the quote. So I don't really care who said it. He's, but they said, uh, failure isn't fatal and success isn't final.

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and one thing that this makes me think of is, um, you mentioned earlier, kind of like the, um, I guess you're, right. Like with your wife, with your kids, but just in general, like, I feel like it could be seen, I guess, as, um, maybe not as, as like emotional or like you're kind of taking emotion out of things, like any bad thing that comes your way.

Like, you know, I guess a, a skeptic of the stoicism was like, well, you're just supposed to accept it and like, maybe not feel anything about it, but that's probably not true. Right. Right. Like you can still have those like disappointed, you know, terrible feelings. Right. It's not saying you can't feel those, right.

Right. Well, I think you just sit with them.

Dalton Jensen

I think it's like any good therapist will tell you this and it can, and whether you say it was from a therapist or stoicism or whatever, but they'll tell you just to sit with your feelings, right? Like feel it to heal it or whatever. Like I love therapy, right.

Um, but, but let's, let's not, but then the therapist will feel it to heal it, but let's not, maybe we shouldn't make any big decisions while we're feeling it. Right. Maybe we should take a step back if I'm angry and, and, and take a moment to let the anger do its thing. Yeah. But then say, you know, then take a deep breath and then approach the situation because again, here's where emotions come in and here's where this, they, this gets answered by stoicism.

Right. So there's an old Zen story of a, of a guy who he's walking through the woods and he gets shot with an arrow. And as he gets shot with an arrow, he has his friends come around him and they want to get him to the hospital. And they said, and he said, not until I know who did it. And they're like, well, yeah, I mean, that doesn't make any sense right now.

Let's just get you fixed. So anyway, long story short, he gets, he doesn't, he dies. Right. So there's actually two lessons to that story. There's, there's the, the lesson that sometimes it doesn't matter what happened.

You gotta, you gotta get healed, man. Yeah. And then, and then, and then there's the, there's the analogy that I gave earlier, which is there's two sides to every story. There's what actually happened.

And then there's the story about you. But you tell yourself about what happened. Right. And by the way, this is beautiful for setting boundaries, right? So let's say I got punched in the face, right?

Well, the reality is, is I got punched in the face. Now I can tell myself the story that this guy was being a bully and malicious to me. And I can, and I can ruminate on that. Right. Or I can just say, you know what, this guy punched me in the face and it was probably bad intentions.

So what do I do with that story? That's really what happened. Well, dude, that's great. Don't go near the bully anymore.

Stay away. Yeah. Find a way you can enforce your boundaries. But the story now is, all right, that's actually what happened. Now, how do I, how do I not put myself in that position again versus the suffering, which is like, man, I got bullied.

And, you know, cause I did, I did get bullied in school when I was little. And so like, you know, all the thoughts go through your head. Like, what am I not, what am I doing wrong? Nobody likes me, all this stuff.

And like, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the, here's the thing to your point, right. It's like, do those things matter? Are those good questions to ask?

Probably not. You know, what about, what if the story in your head that you told yourself was just, Hey, that kid is going through something. He punched you in the face.

Let's not go near him anymore. Had nothing to do with you.

Tyler Leber

That's a pretty healthy way of dealing with it. Focus on what you can control. Yeah. There you go.

Dalton Jensen

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And people are going to do whatever they're going to do. Right. Like nothing would have stopped that kid from bullying me. He was going to do it.

Right. And so resilient, like resiliency, I think is a big one that, that stoicism teaches like being resilient.

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Gotcha. Well, and then, um, you know, tying back, tying this back into again, you know, the, the emotions of it. Have you, have you noticed a difference or like maybe it has, have people near you?

You noticed a difference, like your wife, you know, immediate family, like, um, does it, does it make you less personable or like less relatable because you can act, you know, more coolly or like without, you know, dwelling on those emotions? Does that, you know, listen, here's, here's what people got wrong with that.

Dalton Jensen

No, I have emotions all the time, dude. I jump in for when my son does something cool. My daughter does something cool. I'm, I'm all excited.

I just think, yeah, you, you know, and it's not this sombering thing too. It's like, memento mori, right? Like enjoy it, celebrate it. Right. But just know that those things don't last forever.

Like that it's okay when you're not happy anymore. Like when the joy is over, like you don't need to, it's joy and happiness. Shouldn't be a drug that we chase. Like sometimes it's not going to be okay.

Some things aren't okay, dude. Like, you know what I mean? And just like when I'm mad and when I'm upset and I think the world's ending, right. Obviously I need to make some quick changes, right?

Like for example, like if I, for some reason I can't pay the mortgage, like I'm not going to be all stoic about it and not freak out. I'm going to be like, Oh dude, this is, this is going to suck. But I also, but I'm not, but I'm telling myself that this is going to end, that there's a path out that like I can, that this isn't forever.

Right. That's a big one. So like, it's not this. And by the way, here's the other thing.

A lot of these stoic principles are really good to have like in interpersonal communication, like a really fun stoic book. That's not necessarily, necessarily on the stoic reading list, but I love, um, by the way, do you know who Robert Green is? No. Okay. So Robert Green is an author.

He, he authored the 48 laws of power, the laws of human nature. You can maybe find those books. Ryan Holiday. Ryan Holiday was, um, a researcher for Robert Green when he was writing a few of his books. So he also wrote like the 33 strategies of war, the, uh, the strat, the, um, laws of seduction.

Right. He's very cool about human nature. And some of these things are stoic, but they also just kind of help us. Right. Like one of the most important things I've learned, not in this podcast, but in general is, uh, one of the 48 laws of powers is to speak less.

Okay. Yeah. To know when it's to know when you're done talking. And that's a big problem for a lot of people. Yeah. Yes. Some people just keep, I call, I, in sales, I call it just talking yourself out of a deal. Yeah. Like I'll tell you, I'll tell you the first rule of closing a deal right now.

The first rule is shut the hell up. Yep. Totally. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So anyway, so, so, uh, you know, that is that a stoic thing?

I think it's just a human, it's also human nature. Like, yeah. Right. Do kind of like we, if somebody's talking like, okay, a good example of this in real life today is the difference between like maybe you and I, selling a service or a software and an MLM person selling me their, their, whatever their product.

When was the last time you had an MLM person in your DMS ask you a question and then shut up? They don't, they keep talking. They just talk. They want to tell you, they want to tell you all about it.

And then you're like, dude, this sounds weird because you're talking about it so much, man. Like if you were, I were selling like, Hey, uh, Tyler, I don't even know if this makes sense, dude. Yeah. Tell me about your needs. Right. Like whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big, so like, and I kind of got off on a tangent there because it's just funny. Yeah. People are like, oh, you can't have stoicisms, no emotion.

I think it's just temperance. I think it's just knowing like when to like, like when I, if something goes wrong at my work, I'm not going to lose my mind. I'll get angry and I might show that, but I'm also going to be a little temperate about it because I don't have all the info yet.

Yep. Yep. So even though I'm angry, I might just, I might just say, oh God, you know, damn it. And then I'm going to wait. And that's temperance.

That's stoicism. Not, it's not not getting angry. It's holding, it's not letting that emotion dictate what I'm going to do in that moment. Yep. Yeah. I, I absolutely love that.

Tyler Leber

I think that's, that's my favorite takeaway right now is like the temperance, like you can still, that's like, it's more complex in my mind now. You can still feel that. Emotion. And I mean, we've felt that in our, uh, you know, our previous company venture validator, like there were, you know, up and down times.

And there was a time where like, we had no money in the bank. Like we still had to pay payroll and like, you know, these terrible feelings of stress. I'm like, okay, we're failures, you know, everything sucks. But like, I mean, we can, obviously I think we lived a little bit of that.

So a principle of temperance. Cause like, okay, well, we're not going to let that affect our decision-making. Like let's make the right decisions today that are going to set us up for, for success. You know, like, yeah, yes.

Like we can feel all of these feelings, but that doesn't mean we have to let that dictate the decisions we make.

Dalton Jensen

Yeah. Yeah. Because whatever's happens is going to happen. That's one of my affirmations, dude. Yeah. If we, if we, if we're supposed to make it, we're going to make it. If we're not supposed to make it, we're not going to make it, but whatever happens, you know, God willing, whatever happens, I want to be better for it.

And I want to know that I, I did the right thing while I was doing it. Right. And look, and I, you know, and I, and the argument there is like, well, you got to do everything you can. That doesn't mean that, you know, don't give up.

I'm not, I didn't tell you give up. Yeah. I said, I said, I said, if it, if it's supposed to work out, it'll work out. If it's not, it's not, don't be surprised if it doesn't work out. Like, cause it's okay.

I think that's where people get, like, there, there's this book, there's this book that it's called the happiness trap. And everybody, everybody tries to like, that's why I called it a drug earlier. It's okay to, it's okay to not be happy. Like the goal in life isn't happiness.

I mean, the goal in life is peace. The goal in life is, is learning like peace is not the same thing as happiness. Cause I'll tell you what I've, I've been in some shit storms, but I've, but I've been able to feel peace.

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Hmm. You know what I mean? Like, why are you chasing happiness? Yeah. Yeah. Like, why do you want to be happy all the time?

Dalton Jensen

That's not fun. I don't know, man. Here's the thing. It's a more fatty, which is the love of faith.

That's what, that's this whole thing that I love is like, so my grandpa was a, was a, our branch president growing up. And then he was a counselor and he'd give his testimony and things like that in church. And he used to get up and say, you know, brothers and sisters, you are where you're supposed to be.

Right. And he, and he meant that in, in his old, you know, Christian, you know,

Tyler Leber

way of like, you're supposed to be a church and it's cool.

Dalton Jensen

Yeah. And if you're a, but I took that growing up, I took that as like a more fatty, like, no, no, no. This moment that I'm in right now is exactly where I'm supposed to be. Yeah. It's where I'm supposed to be for better, for worse, because a lot of people get anxiety and depression and like, I'm not a medical person and I'm not saying this is for everybody.

So please don't clip this and be like, Dalton thinks depression is whatever. But like, yeah, a lot of people aren't okay with what, what happens in their life or where they're out in their life because they don't believe it's a part of their story. Yeah. But I've interviewed over 200 plus, you know, 200 founders and CEOs.

I've had over 300 hours of interviews and I'll tell you what, they all went through something hard and they all say, well, I don't believe it's a part of their story. They all say the same thing. They would not have it any other way because it's part of their story.

It's part of what made them who they are. Yeah. It would not have been this person if it, if it didn't almost kill them. Right. And that sucks to hear out loud, dude. And that sucks to hear in a moment when it sucks, when it's so shitty, but like you're exactly where you're supposed to be.

Yeah. And, and the love of fate isn't to like, not try to change your circumstances, but there's some things you can't change, man. There's some things that, that just are what they are. There's not a reason for it.

Tyler Leber

Right. Yeah. Well, and then also, I mean, one, one thought process I had when you were talking about, you know, other business owners that go through tough times, like there, I think there's always a temptation for like imposter syndrome, but just in general, comparing yourself or your fate to other people's fate or journey, you know, your, your journey to somebody else's journey or where they're at in their journey, you know, compared to yours at different ages or whatever.

Um, and so again, I like that where it's, it's bringing the accountability or the, the piece to like, okay, well, this is where I am meant to be like, this isn't their life. This is my life. Yeah. And, and it's just beautiful.

Dalton Jensen

Like it also just is nature like, um, you know, there, there's a lot of things that I agree with in, in life. One of the things that I don't agree with in life is that I don't agree with the nature of life.

And I don't agree with the thinking that people are inherently bad people. Um, because we, the, the one thing that we strive have to try to live in accordance with is nature. Like, uh, you know, the, the Ryan Holiday quotes it a lot, but there's a beautiful passage in meditations where Marcus writes in his diary about, um, in his journal about, um, noticing the, the weight, the, uh, you know, um, a single strand of grain and how it, and how it bends under the pressure of its own weight or how the trees like fall under their own weight and like how things are just naturally grounded and like how they want to be still.

And I think that, um, you know, my son's middle name is, um, which is giving like the land and strong, like the sea, because like, that's beautiful. This is what we're part of nature. We, you know, in the, in the Bible and in Christianity and a lot of these religions, it's like for dust, thou art and unto dust thou shalt return.

Like that's why would you live any other way? You can't live any other way. We're tricking or fooling ourselves if we think we can live outside of accordance with nature. And so I don't know, kind of woo woo, but that's about as woo woo as I get.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's beautiful.

Tyler Leber

I love that. And it does bring a lot of peace, you know, once you, once you can accept that. Um, well, yeah, those are all my questions. I'm, I'm pumped about stoicism.

This is awesome. I learned a ton.

Dalton Jensen

Well, and there's so much more that you can kind of dive into. Um, but like for me, it's for me, the biggest one and the one I could have gotten, the biggest one for me was, is Amor Fati because like, just be okay. You know what I mean?

It's, it's like you can, everything that happens to you happens for you. It's, it's part of your story. It's part of your journey. Um, and it's really just a really great way to live.

Dalton Jensen

And I don't think, I mean, when I started reading meditations and started learning more, it only enhanced all my beliefs. Like, you know, it only, it only created more like I, Joseph Smith, I believe was a, was a stoic. Yeah. You know, when he's so, uh, I'm from Iowa.

Uh, I'm from Keokuk, Iowa, which is right next to Nauvoo, which is right next to Montrose, Iowa. So I think my favorite story of Joseph is when he runs across, he knows he's going to die and he runs, he takes a boat over to the Iowa side of the Mississippi and he stays in Montrose and, and one of his buddies comes over and he says, Hey, they're coming.

Like they're coming and they want you and they're going to do whatever they can to get you. So Joseph comes, Joseph and Hyrum go back over to the, uh, to the Illinois side of the river and they're writing to Carthage because they're going to turn themselves in because they're going to try to work this out. But on the way they know that it, it's not going to work.

Like it's clear from Hyrum and Parley's and these guys' journals that they knew what was going to happen. And so Hyrum pulls out his book of Mormon and he reads a specific passage in ether chapter 12, which is, um, if the Gentiles don't have charity, that is nothing to you. For you have had charity and you've done the work that I've asked you to do.

And you'll be in and you'll find peace because of that. So that it's just so crazy that all that the worst thing that could happen to you is happening to you. And you know that you're going to it. And by the way, you didn't have to be a prophet to know that you were riding into Carthage and they were going to kill you.

I believe he was a prophet and I believe he was inspired, but it was a rocket science. Right. Right. But Hyrum reading that passage just goes to show you that where their hearts were at that time, at least in that moment, which is, uh, we've done everything that we can do. We've controlled everything that we can control.

And this is, and whatever's going to happen to us is going to happen to us. And we're going to do everything that we can do. Right. Right. And then, and then you hear, and then you read some of the stories in the jail of John Taylor. Um, do you know what song Joseph had John Taylor sing in the Grand Carthage jail?

I, I, I've heard of it. I can't remember. It's a poor wayfaring man of grief. Yeah. Right. Yep.

A song that's just about, that's not even, by the way, that's not even an LDS song. We didn't even write. Right. That's an old Christian song about charity and about doing everything that you can in your power, even though, and doing the right thing for the right reason.

And so I don't know. Anyway, it, the stoicism only enhanced the belief that I had in, in, in my religion. So. Yeah. That's awesome. That's cool. Yeah.

Tyler Leber

That's awesome to hear. That's really cool. I'm excited to learn more. I need to read some books.

Dalton Jensen

I need to read some more literature on this. This is really cool. I think if you were going to, if you're going to dive in, I love meditations. Okay. The Gregory Hayes translation is probably the best, or there's a new annotated one.

That's really good. And then I think, I think the other good book to read about stoicism is that Kate Bowler, when I mentioned everything happens for a reason and other lies I've loved. Okay. Sweet. Yeah.

And I'm excited. I'll read those ones. It's crazy. It's cool, dude. Well, dude, man.

Well, if that's all your questions, bro, we took up a good chunk. Dude, I really enjoyed that conversation. It was a lot of fun, man. I appreciate you being here before I let you go though.

Where can anybody go to find a VA doc?

Tyler Leber

Yeah. Coconutva.com. We are, we kind of rebranded a little bit, but we've always loved finding people, you know, really high quality talent. So we are kind of more on the, the premium VA side.

So a lot of people think VA is just do like calendars, scheduling and inbox management, but you know, they, they can do pretty much any job. Uh, in a company. So we're definitely more, uh, the premium VA provider.

Heck yeah, dude. All right. Well, thank you so much, man. Yeah. Thank you.