# How to Live Beyond Achievements

- Podcast: The CEO's Laundry
- Host: Kévin Fornier
- Guest: Tyler Leber, Co-founder of Coconut
- Published: 2023-07-18
- Length: 30 min
- Page: https://podcast.coconutva.com/beyond-achievements-ceos-laundry

## About this episode

In a coaching session, Kévin Fornier works with Tyler Leber on work-life balance, comparison with his co-founder, and the loss of direction after reaching his income goal. Fornier shares a story about an entrepreneur whose only goal became staying as happy as he was, and asks Tyler to pause before analyzing.

## Key moments

- 0:00 Three challenges on Tyler's mind
- 3:52 The miracle Tyler wants
- 6:26 A TED Talk on lost ambition
- 9:16 What fulfills Tyler
- 13:38 A story about happiness goals
- 19:33 Peace without analysis
- 26:16 Pausing instead of acting

## Transcript

**Kévin Fornier [0:00]** Join us on the CEO's Laundry and discover the hidden reality of today's top CEOs. Each episode is an inspiring coaching session where a CEO gains insight and clarity to overcome personal, business, or leadership challenges. Learn to reflect and grow with the behind the scenes of these successful leaders. Hi, Tyler. Hey, Kévin. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm happy. I'm happy. Okay. Awesome. So why are you here today? Why did you say yes to this rare, unique, weird opportunity?

**Tyler Leber [0:44]** Right. Yeah, no, I mean, exactly that because the format is fairly unique. And yeah, I'd say the three things that come to mind. One is, I'd say, just work-life balance and trying to find my ideal situation. And the other is, I'd say, just work-life balance and trying to find my ideal work-life balance. I think just a very brief synopsis of that is just trying to figure out, okay, I'm an entrepreneur. I have my own business. I don't have to be stuck to 40 hours a week, nine to five, but I also don't want to ruin my productivity or lack productivity in any way. And so how can I design my personal work-life balance and make it maximize productivity for me? And then also not be, you know, I don't know, embarrassed or attacked when other people work more hours or, you know, work in a different way. So that's definitely one challenge on my mind, especially right now. The second challenge I'd say is, it's just an ongoing challenge with co-founders in a business of avoiding direct comparison. Because like my Eric, the one, the guy you talked to, he is definitely, definitely more of a visionary type guy. He's, you know, big ideas and he's more of an all-in, you know, on one thing at a time. So, you know, he'll dump a lot of time and effort into one idea, maybe take a little break, maybe, you know, take some time to find a new idea and then jump all in into that one. And for me, it's more of like steady, consistent effort. You know, every day I do a little bit towards this one goal, this one idea. And so the third challenge was to figure out kind of my, goal or underlying ambition, I guess. And this, this could be a big topic, could, could be a good therapy session because I, very early on in my life, I've, I heard of like the happiness salary, like, okay, at this income, you know, 70,000 per year at the time when I first learned about it, that is when you'll kind of reach like, not maximum happiness, but you kind of plateau after that, like additional dollar won't make you as happy. You know, from zero to one. And so I, we've recently hit some, you know, great revenue goals in my business. And so now I'm, I'm getting a healthy salary and I've reached that, that happiness salary. And so that was such a big motivation for the past, you know, six years is my career. I'd say hasn't been a super long career yet. And now that I've, I've hit that, it feels a little weird, like, okay, like, well, what is my big career ambition now? You know, what, what, what is going to fulfill me? Because that was my big goal and target for a long time. And it's like, okay, well now I've achieved that. Now what's like the big underlying motivation for everything that I do. And so, yeah, I, I also think that that is a challenge that's been on my mind. Something that I'd love to figure out and something I'd love to, yeah, to figure out.

**Kévin Fornier [3:52]** Okay. Amazing. What would you love to leave this conversation with in one, one hour? And let's talk in term of, I like to talk about miracle. So what's a miracle you would like to create if, if in one hour you could leave that conversation with a miracle, something that has happened that is life-changing literally for you, what that could be from what you talk.

**Tyler Leber [4:26]** That's a great question. I would say, honestly, I think two miracles could come from it. Probably the biggest miracle I could see is from that third challenge of, okay, what's my now underlying ambition for maybe even just the next few years. It doesn't have to be for the rest of my career, but what's going to be that underlying motivation for me. I think that would be a miracle if we could figure it out in an hour. And then another miracle is also, I'd say back to the first challenge of work-life balance really just narrowing down, Hey, this is what at least a rough guideline of you know, what my work-life balance could be and what's going to maximize my potential. And so those are two that I, I could see happening. Okay. So how is that a challenge for you? Yeah. The, the challenge specifically with the underlying ambition is just that in some ways I know that like deep down, okay, if I stop working on the business today, I know like I'll, I'll probably, the business will grow. Like we've set it up. All the systems, what we need to keep growing. And so it almost feels like redundant in a way to just be working on the business. Cause like I've already reached this financial goal, right? This happiness salary. And so like, you know, why, why do I still need to, to elevate it? You know, why do I still need to keep growing it or putting in all this extra effort? But then it ties into that other challenge going back to like, okay, well, it also goes back to a question of like, okay, well, what fulfills me then? Like, I've had this recent big fulfillment of I've reached the salary level. And now it goes back to the question of a deeper question of like, okay, well, what fulfills me? Because if the business can run without me, you know, it probably can't grow as fast without me, but it can't run without me. And so then it goes, again, it goes back to like, what motivates me? What fulfills me? Uh, that type of question.

**Kévin Fornier [6:26]** Okay. So how are you creating this? How are you creating a life with business success, a happy salary, and a lack of ambition? How are you creating this? If you, if you had to give a Ted talk, a 12 minute Ted talk on how to, how to do that, your secret recipe, your secret sauce.

**Tyler Leber [6:52]** Yeah. What would you say? Hmm. That's a good question. So it's hard for me to create the Ted talk because like, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that Ted talk. Um, or I'm, I'm looking for the Ted talk that will, what was that? Here we are then. Yeah, exactly. What first comes to mind is number one, you're creating a business that is not necessarily important to you. It's important or it's, uh, let's see, it's, it's marketable. You're it's marketable. Maybe not fulfilling to you. Um, or at least just not the maximum level of fulfillment. Uh, and that, that kind of breeds the potential lack of ambition. Um, the, the second insight from, from this Ted talk would be, I guess, I, I don't know, find a business that serves a cause or, um, the potential benefit is maybe lower than like the benefit that you want to create for the world, you know, like you, okay. So like, I want to create a business that's going to, right. In my life, I guess I want to make the world a better place by, you know, of like from, for X variable. Right. So I want to make the world two times better. So in this case, like I would be making, I'd be creating a business that only makes the world better by 1.7 times. Uh, because again, it's, it's just that like middling ambition level. Right. Like, okay. I created the business to reach financial success, but you know, maybe that ambition was lacking because there was just the, just the financial, uh, uh, success portion of it, not the, what good are you creating in the world? Those are my two insights. Okay. Okay. Makes sense.

**Kévin Fornier [8:53]** And what's the last mini point you would give in your, in your conclusion?

**Tyler Leber [9:00]** I would say, yeah, I mean, my, my very end conclusion would be find a business that will help you reach your financial goals, but also your personal potential.

**Kévin Fornier [9:16]** Okay. Thank you for the Ted talk. Yeah, of course. Anytime. So, yeah, I hear you. And it's a topic that I, I call it the spiritual boner. Hmm. It's, it's, it's when you're living a life without that big spiritual boner within you. Yeah. Yeah. You're being there. That's it. You're doing the work. That's it. And you're asking yourself, there's more than this. Right. Yeah. So what energizes you? What fulfills you? I'm not even talking about business right now. What gives you a spiritual boner?

**Tyler Leber [10:05]** Yeah. I would say the things that fulfill me are spending time with family. Like I love spending time with my family and spending time with my wife. And, you know, it always never feels like you have enough time to spend time with your family. And so that is definitely one aspect of life that, that fulfills me. Um, um, but of course there is, you know, a variety in life. Like I, I wouldn't, I don't think I would be happy being like a stay at home dad. Like, I don't think that's quite the answer to, you know, jump in a hundred percent of that. Um, because I, I do have, I always have that feeling of, of ambition, that underlying ambition. Like I have felt that before, you know, when I'm an employee and like, okay, well, this isn't quite enough. I need, you know, I need something else. Like I need to be doing something on my own typically. Um, and that's what led me to. To entrepreneurship. And so that ambition has been, you know, kind of satisfied up until now. Um, so that's what I'm yeah, again, that's what I'm struggling with is, is in the past, that is something that has fulfilled me is that kind of chase of an objective. Like, okay, I set this goal. I really am invested in this goal and I see the potential benefit of it for me. So, and this is something I've thought about on. My own as well as like, I do feel like there's different aspects of my life and what makes up me and what makes up my whole ambition. And there's a family aspect, there is a financial aspect. Um, and then there's like a hobby aspect as well. Like, or I don't know, more of like a social athletic, maybe competitive type ambition. Like those are the three aspects of my life that I have kind of isolated in the past. And now that we talk about it, I should pull up. Those notes that I've, you know, written down on, on that, but those are the three areas of my life that, you know, if, if each one is met, then that's when I've been at kind of my maximum happiness level.

**Kévin Fornier [12:11]** Okay. So you talk about work, ambition, family, ambition, and social slash OB ambition. Yeah. What, what does ambition mean to you? Good question. Um, yeah, I have used that phrase a lot and yeah, it's a good question.

**Tyler Leber [12:32]** Cause I haven't really stopped too much to ever define it, but I guess the, uh, I guess definition that I would use is just that you're, you're reaching for something, I guess that's a little bit beyond your reach at the moment. You know, like you're, uh, you see something ahead of you or, you know, above you that you need to grow to attain that objective, whatever it might be. I

**Kévin Fornier [12:58]** see two things in what you say. So in some aspect of your life, you're, um, looking for a thing to thrive for. Yep. And at the same time, there is a satisfaction perspective of, Hey, can I be at peace and content with where I'm at right now? That doesn't depend on me. It depends on me having to look for the next thing. Yeah. Yeah. Can I share a story with you? Oh, it's a very quick story. Yeah. It's a story of a, of an entrepreneur, successful entrepreneur. And he was constantly thriving and striving for the next thing. And it's like, yeah, you have, you need to have that big goal. And it's like, so every year you have to find that big goal. goal and then it's like where you want to be in three years or five years from now and yeah they said one day i was tired of this and then i understood that if i wanted to shift the way i experienced life i needed to shift myself and so i reflected on where i was and i realized one simple truth it's that i was happy i had my lovely wife my kids my home i had a business running mostly multi-million dollar business i i know i had money coming into the bank account with minimum effort from me and so i changed my goal i changed my three years vision i changed my five years vision and it became to be as happy as i am today and so here i was the the guy and my big five years vision is that i want to be at least as happy as i am today and so i started to keep meeting with friends and entrepreneurs and and business people and it's like well what's your big vision your big goal and i was answering well three years and two years and five years i want to be at least as happy as i am today yeah they're like no no no no you don't understand what's what's your big goal what's your big vision well that's it this is what truly matters this is what is truly important to me and i'm like yeah i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy and how that will look like in five years it's not relevant if in one year i wake up one morning with the thought that i have to close my business and start a new one and that leads me to a place where i'm at least as happy as i was three five two years before then that's good if i wake up one morning and my wife wants to be happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy to divorce me which he said i hope not because i truly love her i know she truly loved me i don't think it will happen because we're permitted yet if one morning she wake up with this three years from now then i want two years after the divorce to be as happy as i am today yeah and so he said that completely changed my perspective to first open myself up to having that as i my big ambition because it allowed me to look at different places i had new thoughts i had a new understanding about myself a new understanding about life and it helped me remind myself of how happy i am because that was my focus and when i was constantly striving and striving for the next thing i was not as aware of the good place i was and i had to train myself and to train my body you to train my mind into hey i'm okay here because i didn't feel that fully right so i'm sure that it was you it came to mind and i would love to know what is it that you understand from this story

**Tyler Leber [17:14]** yeah i don't know the i guess the there are different levels of goals right and so um i think one thing that has maybe led to this time of my life is that my overarching entire life goal was like a monetary goal right and so then reaching that there's a void um and so kind of one thing that i i liked from the story is that it's focusing on a different kind of goal so like you say you know being as happy as as what i am today that's like a happiness goal right not like a a monetary or family oriented or sports kind of goal um and so i think in some cases that's that's hard to measure and i'm a pretty analytical guy and so like that makes me nervous because it's hard to measure um but i do like it like because it is something that you can you can always improve on and it's like the backbone of of everything else right um so yeah so i really yeah i like that and then um i'd say the second insight that i took out from it was just that the it ties into the first insight but the goal isn't yeah it really does tie into the first insight like i really liked how the goal doesn't depend on anything or like how it how things are today right like you said you gave some examples of um okay like well maybe i need to close this business or yeah heaven forbid like you know a divorce um it doesn't it comes back to like who you are as a person and like your personal happiness it's not like okay in three years if i didn't reach this financial goal you know with this business in particular like okay that was a failure you know and like that is now a big void a big you know red x on my on those years um but if again if you reframe it and say okay this is my more happiness goal like it doesn't matter how you get there or you know what choices you make on that journey like all of that is leading up to a very good fulfilling uh goal that again again is independent on on how things are today and you you pointed out a challenge

**Kévin Fornier [19:33]** for you in that so a grow area for you in that is that it's not about analyzing yeah you cannot open excel for this which i would love to do yeah but i can't i i feel that i feel that it would be good to to have some things automatic and okay here i can do some multiplication addition yeah and uh okay i know i have to have more this i have to change this and and this is not the process that you analyze and even in that process the moment you start analyzing you're going further yeah from your goal right because that true space within you that clear space peaceful space loving joyful space which is the natural space of a human being we're born with that we're born with clarity with peace with love and joy and then we grow up and that space is not the place it's not an intellectual space at all so there is also a sense of risk because there is something else another road we can take and it's not a bad or good road it's a road in parallel what are the things that energizes you what are two or three things you would like to do that would make you feel like hell yeah i love it i love life and you would do those activities that would make you feel good you will learn some lesson from it etc no matter what it is if it's related to business or not it could be do power sailing it could do diving it could launch a new venture do a charity fund could be a bunch of things that would be extremely beneficial for you as a human and or to other people at the same time right yet you would be in the same pattern of the next thing the next thing the next thing yeah which wouldn't deal and resolve an underneath issue right now yeah so the question is how can you do both and yet the next thing are not you don't have to they're not needed it's an extra it's a bonus it's really your plus it's because you decide that you won't and it's not yeah it's not mandatory it's like i can i won't and i choose that that's all yeah i don't have to so what would be the challenge for you to shift i mean honestly

**Tyler Leber [22:32]** the challenge i'd say is is separating out all of those other questions of like you know what energizes me because because that is how i've how i've thought i'd say for a long time um and so and like those again like those three pieces i mentioned earlier kind of in my opinion like make up who i am and so you know like separating myself from those three aspects that

**Kévin Fornier [22:58]** i think that's the challenge is like and it's not so much about separating yourself from it because as you mentioned those are things that make you feel good you tyler yeah so it's about your relationship with those things you're striving for things like this you're striving for having family time you're striving for having hobbies etc so that is part of what energizes you energize you already yeah yeah the question in this is how can your level of peace cannot depend on you constantly achieving more and more and more and more um on those things yeah so what's in this for you um the main benefit that comes

**Tyler Leber [23:58]** to mind is is avoiding times like like now where um there is a void felt um and yeah uh you know if i if i am able to do that feel kind of peaceful without and happy you know without needing that like i guess maybe caffeine boost or energy from uh you know striving in these other three areas like can i feel peaceful without having to be running you know to achieve all of these different goals um and so yeah again you know just being able to uh avoid the the feelings of kind of you know depression whatever it might be of of a time where i'm not actively pursuing one of those goals um and i can again be happy with just who i am you know without stretching for those goals like i'm happy with where i am today and of course yeah i'm probably still going to come up with with things that i want to strive for and like those do energize me that's something i want to do right but you know can i be peaceful and happy without them um yeah

**Kévin Fornier [25:07]** so what's on your mind right now what's a different question you might have in mind compared to the beginning of this conversation i'm

**Tyler Leber [25:17]** splitting my day between these three things that energize me my you know kind of my logical next step is like okay well i need to now spend time with myself to make sure that like checking in with myself like okay today are these the things that i want to be doing and that are leading to a goal that i'm excited about and that i choose to want to achieve um so it's kind of like now splitting my day in four almost where the first thing is making sure that those three areas are aligned if that makes sense

**Kévin Fornier [25:49]** okay do you see a challenge in that um

**Tyler Leber [25:54]** no i mean honestly i feel like that's a a pretty solid solution the only challenge is like just figuring out what works for me you know like how how long do i spend what am i doing in that time is it journal writing is it meditation you know what what are the activities that are going to you know make that worthwhile make it actually

**Kévin Fornier [26:16]** helpful okay can can i give you a tip yeah there is a natural tendency here that your mind will have natural tendency of asking okay so what do i do because that's what you're used to yeah what should i do what do i have to do and so the mind will go back into that i have to do something i should do something there because that's the pattern of the mind of like okay next thing we have a goal yeah how to get there and so in that is the challenge is can you pause for a few days one two weeks and simply sting with the fact that there is a possibility of creating yourself differently reminding yourself of that fact that yes i Tyler can be completely at peace from the moment i wake up to the moment i go to sleep completely content with where i'm hot not needing anything not having to do anything being at a place where i wake up one morning and i'm like oh awesome today i want to do this and staying with that in mind for a couple of days one two weeks and there is a kind of pain a kind of challenge in refraining your mind from doing this yeah and simp and not going into analysis staying in observation it it will do its own work it will flourish at its own pace which means that it's effortless yeah it's like you're planting a seed and you're taking care of that seed every day right can i stay can i be with that inside right for a few minutes every day and i can figure out later what what to do and that will come and i can be that instinct with this i know you can feel right now that that it's different yeah

**Tyler Leber [28:35]** i don't feel like i've given myself much time to do that and i i do agree with you you know there is definitely a tendency or temptation to immediately analyze something and um figure out the next step you know figure out the yeah the action items

**Kévin Fornier [28:51]** you know your mind is naturally going to create resistance yeah it's like why am i doing this it's like i will go for the next thing uh yeah i'm wasting time i'm right all bunch of thoughts and and emotions and that that that that will come up so it's also an act of observation of all the resistance that's that comes in this process and which make you be feeling that oh i'm growing here right totally thank you very much tyler i love this conversation together thank you and i wish you a good day thank you